Dialogue about Belief

Why is my idea of God not objectivity? Please enlighten......

BECAUSE TO BE OBJECTIVE YOU NEED TO KNOW EVERYTHING - ALL FACTORS AND YOU, THAT WHICH IS OBSERVING, MUST NOT INTERFERE WITH THE EXPERIMENT, WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE (cf: Schrodinger's cat).

FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU ARE 3 AND THIRSTY - BLEACH IS AS GOOD AS LEMONADE TO YOUR EYES.
WHEN YOU ARE OLDER YOU SEE THE FOLLY OF THIS AND KNOW THAT LEMONADE IS THE ONLY THING YOU COULD DRINK.

NOW, EQUALLY - WHAT IS TO SAY THAT, WITH MATURITY AND INSIGHT - WE WILL SEE THE LIMITED UNDERSTANDING (OR RATHER OUR MIS-UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS) OUR BELIEFS PRESENTLY FEED US? OBJECTIVITY IS A DANGEROUS IDEAL. BUT RIGHT PERCEPTION IS A REALISTIC AND NECESSARY GOAL.


What does my belief system presuppose? Please enlighten.......

IT PRESUPPOSES THAT THERE IS A GOD. EVEN WHEN THERE MAY NOT BE ONE. AND THEN YOU GO AHEAD AND BELIEVE IN HIM AND YOU CEASE TO BE ABLE TO LOOK WITH AN OPEN MIND. YOU NEVER STOPPED TO QUESTION THIS. THE WHOLE CONSTRUCT OF YOUR SEARCH IS BASED ON AN IDEA THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE RIGHT. IT'S LIKE 'A WIZARD OF OZ' COMPLEX; YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A HIGHER BEING - BUT YOU DON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU HAVE MET AND TESTED HIM IF THIS IS ACTUALLY TRUE. THIS IS WHY EXPECTATIONS INTRUDE ON LOVE. LOVE IS PERPETUALLY INNOCENT (from an I Ching commentary: "to express one's self strongly and openly and unexpectedly is an act of innocence since it comes from the heart and thus is not premeditated (a moment of enlightenment)" - BELIEF BY DEFINITION IS PREMEDITATED). OUR IDEA OF GOD - AND THE REALITY OF THINGS CAN BE RADICALLY DIFFERENT THINGS - JUST AS THE POPULAR IDEA OF THE WIZARD OF OZ BLINDED DOROTHY. SHE FIGURED OUT THAT HE WAS NOT ALL HE WAS CRACKED UP TO BE....HE HAD HIS FLAWS TOO. POINT BEING DON'T BELIEVE RHETORIC, DON'T BELIEVE THE BRAIN CHATTER. FIND OUT WHAT BELIES APPEARANCES; ESPECIALLY UNFOUNDED BELIEFS...THIS APPROACH IS THE ESSENCE OF HYPOTHESIS AND THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

I CONCUR WITH YOU ON ONE POINT. IT IS AN ORDERED UNIVERSE. BUT IT IS DEFINATELY NOT A PERFECT UNIVERSE. PERFECTION IMPLIES FREEDOM FROM CONSEQUENCES.


You say that certain things are facts. What is a fact? Something that is provable beyond doubt....doesn't that involve belief?

OH DEAR!
NOTHING CAN BE PROVED.
SCIENCE IS THE DOMAIN OF DISPROVING. READ KARL POPPER. SCIENTIFIC THEORY HAS BEEN FOUNDED ON THIS SINCE THE DAYS OF ARISTOTLE...

THE REALM OF THE MYSTIC IS TO FORGE A RELATIONSHIP WITH SPONTANEITY - WHICH IS OF ANOTHER DIMENSION ALTOGETHER. BELIEF SYSTEMS CLOUD SUCH ENDEAVORS. PERIOD.
A FACT IS AN UNAVOIDABLE REALITY OF CONDTIONED EXISTENCE.

Data comes to us and we find it comforting to say this is a fact and that is a fact.

NO THERE IS NO COMFORT IN FACTS - THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF THEM. THEY ARE NEITHER COMFORTING NOR DISCOMFORTING. THEY JUST ARE. A BELIEF ON THE OTHER HAND IS OF THE REALM OF CONJECTURE AND HENCE OF LIMITED VALUE (AND CAN BE DOWNRIGHT INTRUSIVE) IN FACING WHAT IS.

...but do we stop to think what a 'fact' is? The 'fact' is you could be a brain in a box, for all you know, and there is no way of proving that you are not.

TRUE - I CAN PROVE NOTHING TO YOU.
I CAN BE AWARE OF SOMETHING WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY AND HAVE NO NEED TO PERSUADE ANOTHER OF IT - HENCE THE RECURRING THEME OF THE STORY OF "DOUBTING THOMAS."

WHEN WE EXPERIENCE THAT WHICH IS REAL - NO ONE CAN ALTER THAT EXPERIENCE WITH MERE WORDS. THEY CAN REFUTE IT OR CONCUR WITH IT - BUT THAT DOES NOT ALTER OUR CORE RELATONSHIP WITH THAT WHICH IS REAL. A RELATIONSHIP WITH REALITY IS WHAT I SEEK; NOT BELIEFS IN REALITY. UNTIL I COME UPON REALITY ALL BELIEFS ARE SUSPENDED. IF I COME UPON REALITY - WHAT USE WILL BELIEFS BE THEN? THEY WON'T BE USEFUL. PERIOD. eg "I BELIEVE IN FOOD." NONSENSE! THAT WON'T FEED ME. I EAT. THAT FEEDS ME. NOTHING ELSE. BELIEFS ARE CHUMP.


Facts, they are so nice and lovely. With them I don't have to believe ..........that way I feel secure........

WHAT IS SECURE ABOUT THE FACT OF A TSUNAMI OR DEATH?

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Mind is the closest thing to our Reality...Be careful how you use it. Businessman, yogi, teacher, addicted to laughing...